Stayman

I have been asked by another director if 3C Stayman over a 2NT strong opening is alertable.  THe improver lessons do not say anything on this: I quote:

"After a strong 2NT opener East bids 3? looking for a 4-card major, West rebids 3D?

denying a 4-card major. East chooses 3NT as the final contract."

I cannot find any precision on this in the Manual.  I do not think it should be alertable no more than it is over 1NT opening.

Any comments please?

Thanks

Helene Labreche,
East Coast Bays Bridge club

 

 

 

Started by HELENE LABRECHE on 15 Jun 2019 at 04:59PM

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  1. NICK WHITTEN08 Jul 2019 at 04:36PM

    Hi Helene

    The reality is nobody knows for sure

    I have just sent an email to the Chief Director asking for clarification
    Watch this space

    It wouldn't do any harm to alert any call you are not sure about

    Its hard to envisage a situation where the other side are damaged by an alert when one was not required

    cheers
    Nick

  2. NICK WHITTEN08 Jul 2019 at 10:17PM

     

    Instant reply from Murray Wiggins by email

    3C Stayman over 2NT is alerted

    2C Simple Stayman over 1NT is not

  3. Scott Smith17 Jul 2019 at 05:24PM

    Hi Helene

    I'm not a director, but...

    In a tournament context the answer seems to be in the self-alerting calls set out on page D59 of the NZBridge Manual.

    That instructs us that the following is deemed “self-alerting” and should not be alerted:  "...simple Stayman 2♣ responses to 1NT opening bids and the 2♦ response denying a 4-card major (alert all other uses including a natural 2♣ and responses). Stayman after an opponent’s double should be alerted."

    Hence, a 3C response to a 2NT bid (that is a variant of Stayman, simple or not) is not covered by the exemption, and needs an alert.

    By the way, to my mind "Stayman" is a repsonse to a 1NT bid.  If used over 2NT it is something else, I'd not call that Stayman, perhaps a "Stayman-style major suit ask" or something like that.

    And yes to the unspoken question:  if you alert 3C you would also need to alert the 3D (I have no 4+M) response.

    Regards

    Scott Smith

     

  4. Dougal WATSON25 Jul 2019 at 11:52AM

    The 1NT - (pass) - 2C Stayman sequence is very widespread and fairly standard. It is specifically mentioned in the manual as not requiring alerting due to NZB accepting it as 'common usage'.

    2NT - (pass) - 3C has quite a range of uses, including a range of Stayman-esque asks (e.g. Puppet). Even if it is 'normal' basic Stayman format it does require alerting, as would any non-natural responses ... such as 3D.

  5. HELENE LABRECHE30 Jul 2019 at 12:51AM

    Hello to all, I have read the replies carefully...and I must say, specially to Murray, that I am confused here:  I have been reading this book written by Ron Klinger in 1989, who I believe is an authority on Acol , titled "Bridge For Children".

    when I got near the end of it, there was a chapter on "Summary of The Acol System p.86 and  I quote: "  Responses to 1NT opening:

    2C is the Stayman Convention (see Chapter 16 , page 90) 

    and then :

    Responses to 2NT Openings: 3C is the Stayman Convention (see same chapter 16...) Other suits at the 3 Level  are forcing to game and show at least a 5Card suit."

    So I went to Chapter 16, p.90 : Chapter on "Stayman Convention"  he talks about the the 1NT and 2NT openings...and mentions  that the solution is The Stayman Convention, a 2C response to 1NT and a 3C response to 2NT each of which is a question to opener: "DO you hold a 4Card Major?...."

    So...where did NZB decide that 3C over 2NT opening is not  Stayman ?

    I also looked at ACBL...(SAYC) and 2C and 3C are Stayman convention, not alertable...anything else would be...

    I look forward to someone getting me "unconfused"

    Cheers

    Helene embarassed

    East Coast Bays Bridge CLub.

     .

  6. NEIL HEARN19 Sep 2019 at 10:01AM

    Hi Helen

    A bit late with a reply here, have been overseas.

    My take on alerting 3C over 2NT is that it is not always Stayman. Some of the older members of our club used to use the convention Baron. That is 3C is asking for all of partners 4 card suits, bidding up the line. Therefore 3D says partner has 4D but does not deny 4H/S

    Cheers

    Neil

  7. HELENE LABRECHE19 Sep 2019 at 10:34AM

    Hello again, It is my strong belief that we should be "constant"...if 2C over  1NT  (12-14) opening showing a "weak take out" is alertable as per NZ Manual, and Stayman is not....by reference, 3C over 2NT (20-22 bal) should be "alerted" if it is NOT Stayman.Hence 3C meaning anything else should be alertable.  I strongly urge the Manual to be updated...with that in mind.

    I also believe that players that play complicated conventions over 2NT openings...would most likely be playing Standard American...and in that system, 3C Stayman is NOT alertable either.

    CHeers

    Helene

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