Teaching bridge in NZ

It is now clear where we are, teaching bridge in NZ. 

On one hand we have teachers who want to teach their own thing, and disagree with everyone having a universal set of rules.

On the other hand we have a web site that anyone, teacher or learner, can go to, with all the universal rules.

And I agree. That is what we should have, the choice.

Unfortunately the web site with the universal rules has chosen to have so many negative points of view that it is dangerous for even teachers to use, never mind learners. It was such a great idea at first, but the people who put it together had 2 problems. Firstly they did not find out what the best universal rules would be. And then when various problems were highlighted, they were not prepared to fix them, as they then had conflicts of interest, having spent a lot of time and effort, never mind money, in preparing notes, PowerPoints and videos. And of course they were never going to admit to former pupils that the stuff they had already taught was at best, second rate. (The only thing they were prepared to admit was that teaching suits before 1NT was wrong, they didn’t change it, they just put in an alternative format)

I believe it is too late to save us. The site cannot be modified. It needs to be rewritten, and this is just not going to happen, for the reasons above. The teachers’ conference next month is unlikely to address this, it is just too hard.

However if it ever came to pass then this is what I believe should be changed, and here are my reasons;

  1. 1NT before suit bids. The logic is unescapable. Only if you do not have a 1NT bid should you open with a suit. The reverse is not true.
  2. A one spade bid should show 5 or more Spades. This has been true 99.7% for the past 40 years, and is simple to teach. The exception, opening one Club with three cards in clubs, is trivial.

      3. We should teach Standard attitude, not reverse. There is not a book written for beginners or improvers that teaches reverse    attitude.

       4.We should teach count, and I mean Standard count, not reverse. There is not a book written for beginners or improvers that     teaches reverse count. And all the books show count, it is not ignored  

       5.  We should teach Stayman without the limitation of holding 9 cards in the majors. No one in real life would pass 1NT, and would    not bid Stayman holding  Kxxx, Kxxx, Kxxxx, void.

      6. The rebid of 1NT should show 15-16 points, not 15-17, which has an error rate of well over 20%.

      7. Very little has been written on the Negative Double. As this comes up a number of times in a session, (and goes unnoticed by   beginners), this requires a lesson by itself.

I have no real concern that many teachers have little real experience in higher levels of bridge, which can be seen by the paucity of “A” points held by many, although they have played for many years.  But it is sad that those with that experience, who can give examples of mistakes, (and sometimes brilliancies), are given little respect, and their views are deemed too complicated or advanced.

There may still be hope for the next web site addition, however. Once we decide to teach Transfer bids, Multi Landy, the Multi 2 Diamond, and escape from 1NT doubled, there is plenty that can be discussed before agreeing on the final format. 

I certainly hope so, anyway. 

Started by STANLEY ABRAHAMS on 19 Jun 2016 at 07:17PM

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  1. DOUGLAS RUSSELL19 Jun 2016 at 11:52PM

    Well, well, well. Stanley does have a lot to say about the teaching and teachers of bridge in New Zealand. And that is exactly as it should be, on a forum such as this. Perhaps it is time to respond on behalf of those of us who actually do it, as opposed to talk a lot about it.

    First, the teachers. There ARE some of us out here, doing the job of turning on beginners to our beautiful game who do have "real experience in higher levels of bridge" and more than a "paucity of A points". And some of us DO know about empathy with our students, that is putting ourselves in the position of beginners who can scarcely count points or sort their hands, let alone cotton onto the reasons for a hold-up play or the relevance of a count signal. If you take a census of the typical beginners class, you will find that the majority of them are having a try at a game that they have heard is quite good fun and challenging, as opposed to learning, say, ballroom dancing or Mandarin. How do I know this? - because I have asked them. These folk are not going to spend 15 hours each week reading books from the library or hunting around on-line; what they are looking for is some indication of whether the game is for them or not. And as teachers it is our job to show them that it is. The proof of this particular pudding is in the eating - how many of your beginners class proceed on to higher things?

    Secondly, the NZ bridge material. Of course it has shortcomings, as any new venture will have. Like many others, I use it with discretion as a basis for my lessons, and modify it where I think appropriate; I certainly agree that teaching the opening 1 NT before suit bids makes sense, for example. I also think that the beginners series should have some early lessons on play, as opposed to bidding. However, I think that the dedicated souls who have put all this material together should be applauded for their efforts in getting this venture started, rather than pilloried for the items with which we disagree. And that is why we have a forum such as this, and a teaching congress in July; we should surely try to gather a consensus view from the teaching community of what is best in these lessons. As Stanley rightly points out, it would be best if all students acquire a system that is transferable to other clubs, rather than a local dialect.

    Finally, and perhaps a little controversially, it might be time to start some kind of teacher training and accreditation programme - such programmes are already in place in Australia and the UK, for example. In this way, we should proceed some way down the track of ensuring that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Cheers

    Douglas Russell

    Auckland/Akarana/North Shore clubs.

  2. GILES HANCOCK20 Jun 2016 at 10:17AM

     

    We don't need international experts to teach beginners. - we need good teachers !

     

    Who is teaching Stayman requiring 9 cards in the majors ??!

     

    We should not be teaching beginners attitude or count.   They have enough to think about.

     

    5-card spades is an abomination.

  3. STANLEY ABRAHAMS20 Jun 2016 at 11:30AM

    I will reply to Giles first. 

    1. What do you reply to a beginner or improver who is keen to understand the logic behind a lesson? They ask a simple question like "Why do we do this"? The teacher who is just a good teacher, but has never been there, can only answer, "because that is what we teach."

    I will give you one example. The bidding by NS goes 1C (strong), 2D (positive with good Diamonds), 3C, (Clubs), 4C (Club Support), 6C.

    I will repeat it, 1C, 2D, 3C, 4C, 6C. 

    You hold JT98, K32, Q, T9876. What is your lead? (If it helps, the declarer was Belladonna).

    2. Who is teaching Stayman requiring 9 cards in the Majors? NZCBA improvers lesson 1, that is who.

    3. We should not be teaching beginners attitude. So why are you not complaining to the NZCBA, am I the only voice?

    4.  5 card Spades is an abomination, you write. Could you please give a couple of examples so that we can all hear the other side of the discussion. As I have said elsewhere, coming to a conclusion without a discussion is not particularly helpful. I gave my reasons, perhaps you can give yours, and readers can judge. (I really want to know, I have never heard that it was unpopular, just that teachers taught 4 card suits, without explanation).)

  4. STANLEY ABRAHAMS20 Jun 2016 at 12:55PM

    My reply to Douglas. 

    Yes, I do have a lot to say, but only because others, who are extremely concerned, are not speaking up. The old saying, "the only thing neccesary for the triumph of evil ..etc.

    You write, "Those of us who actually do it, as opposed to talk a lot about it". I hope that is not an ad hominem attack on me, you have no idea when I first taught, but I took over from Ailsa Hollis at Selwyn College and later at Edgewater College, for Adult Education in the early 80's, and have been involved on and off, ever since.

    I, on the other hand have not attacked anyone, and if you read carefully, I wrote, "It was such a great idea at first". I don't think that is them being pilloried, my dictionary says "exposed to public scorn or abuse."

    Empathy is putting yourself in their position, not going over things they didn't get the first time. Empathy is when one group goes to your class, but another group goes on line to learn, and when they meet up to practise, they have learnt different things, and they say S#@T. And yes, you write "some of us", twice in fact, but that is exactly the point is it not. Some of us do, but some of us don't.

    And I am happy that you agree with my first point, teaching 1NT before suit bids. But there was a deafening silence on the next 6 points I raised, who will be the first to give a reasoned rebuttal, I wonder.?

  5. GILES HANCOCK20 Jun 2016 at 03:53PM

    Hi Stanley

     

    2. Who is teaching Stayman requiring 9 cards in the Majors? NZCBA improvers lesson 1, that is who.

    You are misreading Lesson 1.  5-4 in the Majors is only one option.

     

    3. We should not be teaching beginners attitude. So why are you not complaining to the NZCBA, am I the only voice?

    The reverse attitude lesson is part of the Improvers series of notes.   I would introduce the concept in a player's first year, maybe.

     

    My club has no international players.   Who is meant to take the beginners lessons ?

     

    btw, it's "NZ Bridge" now.

     

    regards

  6. STANLEY ABRAHAMS20 Jun 2016 at 05:43PM

    No Giles I did not misread the Stayman notes. They MUST have either 11 Plus, with one 4 card Major, OR  5-4 with any 2. 

    You were the one who wrote, "We do not need International experts to teach beginners", not I. And I agree, but it is always a plus when they do, and can add another dimension. That is why I asked the lead question, as I got it wrong, (on Viewgraph), but learned a lesson I have never forgotten, and can pass that message along. I am interested in what you would teach them to lead.

    I really would like to hear why you think the 5 plus spades is an abomination, can you give any examples where it goes wrong?

    And thanks for the NZ Bridge comment, I had forgotten all about that.

  7. GILES HANCOCK20 Jun 2016 at 11:35PM

    From the Lesson 1 Stayman notes:

    To use this 2C ?bid responder must have
    either: at least one 4-card major suit and 11+ HCP
    or: at least 5-4 in the majors with any point count

     

    Next week I am teaching an Improver's Lesson on Defence.   I will mostly include Opening Lead examples that I understand.   I'm sure someone more experienced than me could do a better job, but I'd like to think that I can help them progress.   If you want to join us ...

     

    Opening 1S with a 4-card suit will only occur with 4=3=3=3 shape and 15-19 points.   Why confuse beginners by teaching them to open these hands 1C ?   If partner raises to 2S you have a NT rebid.   KISS.

     

    regards

     

  8. STANLEY ABRAHAMS21 Jun 2016 at 01:26PM

    We are getting there, albeit rather slowly. I am trying very hard not to get too personal, as this should be about the methods, not the teachers.

    You agree just as I originally wrote, that 4-3-3-3 with 4 spades only occurs with 15 -19 points. And that is only 3 times in 1000. But you intend to teach that the 1 Spade bid only shows 4 Spades. Therefore the responder with 3 card Spades and 6-9 points will always bid 1NT, not 2 Spades as you hope.  Therefore you cannot change that response to 2NT, as they will never bid 2S. (Of course after a while the responder will probably realise that the opener always seems to hold at least 5 Spades, and will start raising with 3. WOW! mission acomplished.)

    You don't have to make a big deal about the 3 times in 1000. If they play a session once a week, they will pick up that hand once every 3 months, and may not even be first to speak. Just tell them to pretend one of their small Spades is a Club for the first 30 seconds of the auction, and then continue as normal.

    I see you have repeated the notes on Stayman. It says either and or. There is no other option. This is English 101. It is manifestly incorrect.  I repeat, what do you bid with Kxxx, Kxxx, Qxxxx, void. Nobody should pass 1NT with that hand. I have given the maths already.

    Finally I would love to join you to help in opening leads. Once you answer my lead problem, I will explain the reasoning. 

    Hopefuly the other 2000 readers here may also like to join in.

     

  9. DOUGLAS RUSSELL21 Jun 2016 at 01:41PM

    Hi guys

    I had originally thought that I would not comment again on this topic, but Giles has voiced my thoughts about the 5-card spade suit exactly, and I would like to take it a little further, in addition to making some observations about Stanley's other points.

    First, the 5-card vs 4-card spade suit: as Giles has pointed out, the difference becomes important only when Opener has a 4333 15-19 count. I would like to ask two things:

    1. How do we explain to BEGINNERS that it is OK to open any other 4333 hand shape with the four-card suit, but when the 4-card suit is spades we must open 1 club? In answering this query, I'd like to see a little empathy, which according to my reading of dictionary definitions of the word means the capacity to see an issue from the point of view of someone whose experience is not the same as one's own. In other words, it is not sufficient to say simply "because we need a 5-card suit to open 1 spade".

    2. How should the bidding proceed if partner responds an expected 1D or 1H to one's opening of 1C with the 4333 15-19 count? Most experienced players would hide the 4-card spade suit and rebid the appropriate level of NT, since rebidding 1S would tend to suggest an unbalanced hand with 4 spades and 4 or 5 clubs. The partnership then needs some sophisticated methods to uncover a possible 4-4 spade fit if game is possible, and the fit may be missed entirely if Responder does not have enough to bid again.

    Next, signals and discards. Stanley has stated that no book describes reverse (or upside down) length and attitude signalling. My trawling of the web suggests otherwise. I give the following quote as just one example from the USA:

    "UDCA is shorthand for Upside Down Count and Attitude Signals. 10 or more years ago, there were relatively few pairs using this carding system. Back then, a lot of players thought that the pairs who employed this carding agreement did so mostly to confuse their opponents. Since then, although there are still a few stubborn holdouts, it is nearly universally accepted that upside down carding is superior to standard signals, for a number of valid reasons. In fact, in this country, I think it’s safe to say that over 90% of all experts have converted to it".

    The main reason for its popularity is that one may need a high card as a potential trick, and cannot therefore afford to part with it (or a negative signal in a different suit may be hard to read). Secondly, it is consistent with the philosophy of opening leads: the lower the card led, the more likely it is that the leader has interest in the suit. I have polled the learners in the North Shore Club's supervised play sessions (these have all been through beginners and sometimes further formal teaching) on this topic, and the overwhelming consensus there is "Low for Like, High for Hate" (a nice little mnemonic). In other words, learners have no trouble with this concept.

    Good stuff!

    Douglas Russell

     

  10. STANLEY ABRAHAMS21 Jun 2016 at 02:05PM

    Douglas, UDCA stands for Upside Down Count and Attitude signals. Can you see the third word there, COUNT? We have decided without discussion, not to teach COUNT. 

    And 90% of experts have converted to it, you write. We are teaching beginners and improvers, not experts who have already read all the books, analysed thousands of hands, and come to a conclusion. Your next point will probably be that the 10% of experts who have not converted to it are wrong, (Like Bob Hamman), and the learners at the North Shore Club are right.

    Please quote a book, a magazine, a blog, anything at all that even quietly hints that we should teach Reverse Attitude, and NOT teach any kind of count.

    I believe that until you can show that, then NZ Bridge is alone in the world in trying to teach such a system. And that is just wrong.

  11. STANLEY ABRAHAMS21 Jun 2016 at 03:50PM

    The problem with teachers who have never taught a 5 card Spade suit, is that they make assumptions about how it is taught. With the problem hand, 15-19 point points, 4-3-3-3, we start by asking them to pretend that a small spade is a small club, and then proceed as normal. Normal does NOT mean hiding the Spade suit, and instead bidding the appropriate NT. Normal means bidding 1 Spade! Most experienced players do not hide the Spade suit. And we are not, repeat not, discussing experienced players. We are teaching, Always investigate a major fit, to learners and improvers.

    Suggesting that that shows an unbalanced hand like 4 spades and 5 clubs has no real downside, the responder is not in final control of the auction. Suggestions that the bidding requires sophisticated methods to locate a 4-4 spade fit are suggestions, nothing more.

    And if responder is minimum nothing is lost. What possible problems can occur over 1 Spade rebid by opener? Let us look at the various possibilities.

    Responder has 4 Spades, then they just bid to the appropriate level. 1C, 1H, 1S, then 2S with 6-9, and opener passes with 15, invites with 16 or 17, and bids game with 18 or 19. With more than 9, responder bids 3 Spades, or 4 Spades.

    Responder has less than 4 Spades, and 6-9 points, they bid 1NT.  Opener passes with 15, invites with 16-17, and bids game with 18-19.

    Responder has more than 9 points, bids a new suit, bids 2NT, or chooses to go back to 2 Clubs, opener will know what to do. 

    Another problem, not yet discussed, is when responder has 5 Hearts and less that 10 points, but that is for another thread, and is of course a real problem if you opened 1 Spade, and got a 1NT response. At least by opening 1 Club, the heart suit has already been mentioned once.

    Those who are not happy with 5 card Spade suits as a system, have apparently never tried to teach it. And of course the prepared 1 Club bid is rarely seen, calculations show once every 3 months, and only if you are first to bid.

  12. DOUGLAS RUSSELL21 Jun 2016 at 03:53PM

    Stanley

    Below are four quotes for you, the first from Kit Woolsey, the second from Larry Cohen, both very experienced bridge educators in the USA. The third is relates to Andrew Robson, arguably England's best bridge teacher and close to top player. The fourth is about Eddie Kantar, also a top teacher in the USA. This would suggest that NZ Bridge is not "alone in the world".

    I think perhaps that you may be missing my other point. I was not for one moment suggesting that the views of learners at North Shore should carry more weight than those of Bob Hamman (but not those of Jeff Meckstroth and Eric Rodwell, who pioneered reverse attitude signals in the USA). What I was trying to say was that learners appear to have no more difficulty in grasping the idea of Low Like High Hate (a nice little mnemonic) than standard signals, in other words I was seeking the views of recent learners rather than imposing those of more experienced players. Given that (a) more experts seem to veer towards reverse attitude signals than standard; (b) learners have no trouble with this concept; and (c) most bridge players that they are likely to encounter when they start to play serious bridge (and that is almost certain to be in New Zealand) play reverse attitude, it seems more sensible to go that way in our teaching.

     

    1. The reason upside-down attitude is theoretically superior is that when you have strength in the suit your intermediate spots are more likely to be necessary to keep than when you are weak in the suit.

    2. Honestly, "upside-down" which is played in many countries is a slightly better method.

    3. Since Andrew Robson's advice, my partners and I play reverse attitude, ie high hate, low like.

    4. 10+ years ago, Eddie Kantar wrote up a comprehensive analysis of the wins and losses for standard vs. reverse signals in the ACBL bulletin. His bottom line was that UDCA was technically superior, but by a slender margin.
    Honestly, "upside-down" which is played in many countries is a slightly better method - See more at: https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/263#sthash.7v3IdWLC.dpuf
  13. GILES HANCOCK21 Jun 2016 at 04:13PM

    <sigh>

    Stayman with weak 4441 or 4450 shapes etc.   You can teach this if you like, I do.  But the writers of the NZ Bridge notes have made a decision not to include this.   Calm down.

     

    The 4=3=3=3 discussion.   It's not a big deal to teach beginners that every suit opening is only promising four, and to respond to 1S with 1NT with 3 spades.   BUT it's simpler for them to remember and cope at the table.   We're not trying to teach beginners the best system, just a system to get them playing.   When they're ready to advance, by all means teach them to raise 1S-2S with three spades, I do.  Or just teach full 5-card majors.   But stop over-complicating for absolute beginners.

    Asking beginners to pretend that one of their spades is a club ??   Please stop teaching beginners !  laughing

     

     

     

     

     

  14. STANLEY ABRAHAMS21 Jun 2016 at 04:49PM

    Russell, they also teach count, we don't. UDCA includes COUNT.

    This is a direct cut and paste from Larry Cohens' website. Not quite what you wrote.

    For count or suit preference, "standard" or "upside down" doesn't make much difference. For attitude, "upside down" is actually a little better, but not worth switching to if it will give you a headache. Standard is good enough for Bob Hamman, so it should be good enough for you.

    In general, a discard should be an attitude signal (the first one, anyway). Subsequent discards can be used to show current count. The signal to partner's lead of a suit also tends to be attitude in most signaling systems.

    - See more at: https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/242#sthash.PeKQTehr.dpuf

  15. NICK WHITTEN22 Jun 2016 at 12:43PM

     

    I agree with Giles' comment "5-card spades is an abomination" for these (additional) reasons

     

    1  If you hold say AKQx  xxx  AKx xxx what do you want partner to lead from a similar holding in both black suits?  (assuming you only had the chance for one opening bid and then the opponents took over the auction)

    2  How can responder know what suit to choose with one more club than spade in the uncontested sequence
    1C - 1 red suit - 1S? (when the number of clubs in opener's hand can be anything fron 3 to 6)

    3  What is the opener supposed to rebid with a minimum 5314 or 5134 shape after partner bids his short suit?
    (you already told partner you have 5 spades and he has denied 3-card support)

    4  What is responder to bid with 2434 shape after partner opens 1C and opponent overcalls 1H when holding 6-9 points and no stopper in  hearts?

    Nick Whitten

  16. STANLEY ABRAHAMS22 Jun 2016 at 02:24PM

    Well Nick, I don't have all the answers, and quite often there is no correct answer. But going through your points 1 by 1, here are my answers, (or just as likely, alternatives.)

     1. It could be you hold Qxxx, xxx, AKx, AKx. Your question remains the same. You open 1S, I open 1Club. I have no correct answer to your lead question.

    2. You write "one more club than Spade." Is that 1S and 2 Clubs? or 2S and 3 Clubs? Or 3 S and 4 Clubs?  In the first 2 they would probably bid 1NT, in the 3rd case they would choose to play in a 4-3 club fit, or a 4 -3 Spade fit. No big deal. (Except that I will hold 4 plus Clubs nearly all the time). You on the other hand will open 1S, and because they won't give immediate support with 3, they will probably bid 1NT

    3. Well, partner has shown 10 plus points by bidding his suit at the 2 level, so a rebid by opener of 2NT will be fine. 

    4. Well, playing your system the bidding would have gone 1S, 2H ? and I guess the answer is the same. PASS, a bid beginners have difficulty making.

    You can see that there are no absolutey correct bids, that is the game we play. But so far I can see no specfic point that shows that promising 5 plus Spades has a downside, (except opening 1Club with 3 once every 3 months), and as that is correct 997 times out of 1,000, why not make it easy for the non experts, who can support with 3 cards immediately, and gives no extra information to the opponents.

    One day I hope that someone who teaches 4 card suits, will reply saying, "Oh now I get it!"

  17. GILES HANCOCK23 Jun 2016 at 12:13AM

     

    We get it Stanley, we're not stupid.   Please allow us to disagree with you.

     

  18. DOUGLAS RUSSELL23 Jun 2016 at 12:33AM

     

    The 4-card versus 5-card spade debate is getting a little out of hand, so perhaps it is time for us all to calm down. The issue is not what is right or wrong in the grander scheme of things, it is about what is the right thing for beginners. Let me rehearse the full argument as follows, as I think that it has lacked a little clarity in its statement to date:

    1. Standard Acol opens balanced 12-14 counts with 1NT and balanced 20+ counts with stronger bids.

    2. Standard Acol opens the lower 4-card suit when the hand contains two and is otherwise balanced outside the 1NT or 2NT/2C ranges. Thus with a 4-card spade suit and any other, the hand will always be opened with the other.

    3. By elimination, the only time that we might open a 4-card spade suit is when we have a 4333 15-19 count; on all other occasions it is 5+ cards. This exception hand occurs only 3 times in 1000.

    4. Stanley's case is - why not therefore go the whole hog, and state that a 1 spade opening always guarantees a 5+ card suit, so that partner can confidently raise to 2, 3 or 4 spades with only 3? If we do that, then we are obliged to open the exception hand with 1 club.

    Nothing wrong with this logic; the question is, how would we explain this to raw beginners? To the very few who are thinking deeply about the game, the immediate question will be - why can we open any other 4333 hand with the 4-card suit, but not with spades? In my view, it would take a pretty perceptive beginning student to follow the above arguments. To the great majority, who just want very simple and consistent rules at this stage of their development, it will appear illogical and confusing, and therefore quite likely to be forgotten in the heat of actual play. And I also have to say, Stanley, that asking them to pretend that one of their spades is a club is likely to generate some pretty interesting questions!

    Cheers

    Douglas

     

  19. NICK WHITTEN23 Jun 2016 at 08:53AM

     

    I'm afraid I don't "get it" when the prescribed rebid in my example 3 is to make a bid showing a balanced 15-16 when holding an unbalanced minimum

  20. STANLEY ABRAHAMS23 Jun 2016 at 03:25PM

    Well Russell, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I guess when it comes to teaching the response to an opening bid of 1 Spade, you say something to your beginners like,

    "When the opener opens 1 Spade and you hold 3 spades and 6-9 points, just raise them to the appropriate level, 2 Spades, because you will be surprised, they will nearly always have 5 Spades anyway". I'm just guessing of course, but how else can you stop them bidding 1NT with their 6-9 points? 

    And for smaller clubs, would it not be absolutely fantastic if the teacher for the improvers, taught count, Stayman with 4-4 not 5-4, a rebid of 1NT showing 15-16, and of course a full lesson on the Negative Double.  After a year or so, those improvers will be beating all the old timers who learned the wrong stuff, and continue to get some poor results because of that.

    And what a hero that teacher would be! Some oldies might even pop in to the improvers lessons just to see what all the fuss was about.

     Alternatively pigs might fly.

     

  21. DOUGLAS RUSSELL23 Jun 2016 at 05:07PM

    Stanley, I have also been doing a little thinking about your statement that the 4333 hand with 4 spades and 15-19 points occurs only 3 times out of 1000, and therefore when partner opens 1 spade it contains 5+ of that suit 997 times out of 1000. In my previous posts, I took this on trust (because you are a mathematical genius smile). I have done my own research on this, and I have come to the following conclusions:

    1. The probability of picking up the 4333 hand with 4 spades and 15-19 points as described above is indeed 0.34%, as you say.

    2. The total probability of having a 5 or more card spade suit in a hand containing the normal 1 level opening range, say 11-19 points, is by my reckoning about 6.97%.

    Combining these two means that when one opens 1 spade, one will have the 4333 15-19 hand more like 1 in 20 times. Thus while the first statement above looks OK, I think that one must be careful about translating that into the second.

    Cheers

    Douglas

    PS - Douglas, not Russell

  22. STANLEY ABRAHAMS23 Jun 2016 at 05:38PM

    Sorry Douglas, about the Russell.

    As I am sure you are aware, I really am not a mathematical genius. However I think the 2 points you make are not connected. However I will ask my Maths Genius partner tonight, and will report back unless we fail, again, to reach 50% due to his inability to count to 13.

  23. HELENE LABRECHE18 Jul 2016 at 04:36PM

    Dear Stanley,  permit me to disagree with you here.  I am a Bridge Teacher and I must command NZBridge for all the material that is now made available to us on the website.   NO one forces us to use it.  THere are tons of systems on the web...for anyone's choice.

    If I prefer something else than what is in the material, I just ask my students to write over it..end of! It does not mean the material is not good.  Every teacher can personalise their teaching starting from a baseline...

    I certainly would be lost without this material.  I do not wish to spend my time re-inventing the wheel.

    One can choose to teach INT first or not.  I personnaly don't.  But I teach a beginner version of Stayman during the course for the learners to know about.  And I use part of Stayman material on the web.   Wonderful!  We even get the .BRI files. And my students don't have to use it.

    If they want to practice it...the boards are made.

    I think NZ supports their teachers very well, thank you. I think the website is wonderful !

    Just my opinion, no offense intended.

    Respectfully

    Helene Labreche

    East Coast Bays Bridge Club

  24. STANLEY ABRAHAMS10 Sep 2017 at 03:41PM

    I had hoped that someone, somewhere, would have answered, however briefly, what was wrong with playing that a Spade suit should be 5.

    (Besides the fact that once every  months one needed to pretend, if only for a short while, that a small spade was a club). Edgar Kaplan said to us, "That is an excellent Compromise" when we had to give him our system before the Bermuda Bowl in 1974.

    From time time I like to reread some of my bridge books, and yesterday I was looking at "Bridge Odds for Practical Players"

     by High Kelsey and Michael Glauert. It was the word Practical that gave me reason to bring up the subject again.

    When I read Suit-Support Expectancy I had an epiphany. He wrote, "Suppose you have a 5 card spade suit. what are the chances that partner will have 3 card support?

    Actually I didn't know the actual answer, the question had never really been asked. But for PRACTICAL players it suddenly seemed the key to the whole question.

    And the answer was 30.58%

    So what exactly do we teach our Practical beginners when their partner opens 1 Spade, (which NZB teaches as 4) and we hold  3 card support more than 30% of the time?

    I really would like to know.

  25. HELENE LABRECHE10 Sep 2017 at 06:50PM

    Stanley, I am sorry you feel this way; as far as I am concerned, the NZB website is a wonderful tool to standardise the teaching base.

    I use it with great delight.  Teachers do not have to use everything but a good base is very important to create a decent bridge player.

    Once the players get better, there are plenty of improvers everywhere for them to "tweek" that base not to mention the million books that have been written...Teachers needed a tool like the website..it has given me great successes with my learners. 

    There is nothing wrong with you starting with NT if you want to...there is that option on the web. I also talk about Stayman to my students and if they want to practice it, I let them..it is optional at the beginner's lessons...but they are aware of the convention and most of them play it once they play with the normal group.

    You should know by now that there is no such thing as a perfect system..having a good base is so very important...don't knock it!

    Helene Labreche, teacher

    East Coast Bays Bridge Club.

     

  26. NICK WHITTEN10 Sep 2017 at 07:06PM

     

    Hi Stanley

    Somebody did say what is wrong with 5-card spade suit

    That somebody was me on this thread June 22 2016

    Are you saying I am nobody

    I don't mind that; nobody is perfect

  27. STANLEY ABRAHAMS10 Sep 2017 at 08:30PM

    I said I would really like to know. All I hear are personal attacks. Helene ignores the question completely. Nick, well I did reply one day later to your comments on 22nd June. (without attacking you personally). 

    So the question remains, you teach 4 card spades, (even though it is usually 5) what is the response with 3 card support? That is all I really want to know, what do you tell them to bid with 6-9 and 3 spades?  (Which is nearly a third of the time.) If someone can give me a useful, honest, transparent answer I will start teaching it, But for 45 years we have played and taught 5 cards, and although there is not always a complete answer, there appear far fewer drawbacks than not supporting immediately with 3 card support. 

    What do you teach, Helene?

  28. HELENE LABRECHE11 Sep 2017 at 08:54AM

    Hi Stanley, I am the teacher at East Coast Bays Bridge Club on the North Shore and I agree that whenever someone learning 4 card majors and opening 1S...will mostly have a 5 card suit...that is not the point!  The point is to start somewhere.  Goren wrote the book on 4 Card Majors and then rewrote the book with 5 cards; personnally I open 5 card majors ( having learned SAYC first in Canada); The point is to give a base to learners...and keep it simple.  Once they have mastered a simple bidding sequence...then they can go to better things if they want to.

    I have 56 learners this year at my club!...I need to keep it simple!...and make them fall in love with the game by not over complicating things..

    So far, so good...no one quit and I am at lesson 4.embarassed

    Cheers

    Helene

  29. NICK WHITTEN11 Sep 2017 at 09:05AM

     

    I teach its Ok to raise with three trumps if the alternatives look ugly (any suit, not just spades).

    Often (I'm sure some geek can quote the exact percentage) opener will have more than 4 cards.

    And if he has only 4 it will often play Ok in a 4-3 fit

     

    But I always stress NEVER bid a (new) suit with less than 4 cards.

     

    Three trumps and a shortage is one situation where the alternatives are ugly.

     

    So if partner opens 1H:

    with [a] S: 3 H: K53 D: J9753 C: K953 I recommend bid 2H

    with [b] S: 753 H: K53 D: KQ3 C: J953 I recommend bid 1NT

     

    If opener has either of the following hands, responders choice of denomination will be the only makeable game

     

    [c] S: A64 H: AQJ6 D: A82 C: A62

    [d] S: A64 H: AQJ64 D: A82 C: Q6

     

     

    And also if responder has this hand

    [e] S: 864 H: KQJ4 D: 82 C: 8642

    and the bidding has gone (uncontested):

    Opener: 1C Responder: 1H Opener: 1S

    I teach ALWAYS correct to 2C (but what should he do if partner might only have three clubs?)

     

  30. STANLEY ABRAHAMS11 Sep 2017 at 03:10PM

    Hi Nick, I really appreciate your reply. You have clearly articulated what you do, and I agree with everything you just wrote.

    I will reply to your last sentence, where you ask what happens if opener has only 3 clubs? The answer is that opener with 3 clubs will have to choose between bidding 2NT, remember they are 4333 with 15-19, or bidding 3 hearts on the way, in case the responder had 5. (or passing, in case responder had 5 clubs and 4 hearts.) These are decisions that are a bit difficult, particularly for those learning the game. 

    And with that comment I make one little point, we are teaching newcomers, and the point you make about raising on 3 card support is a little advanced. Don't you think that promising a 5 card Spade suit might possibly be easier.

    And my final comment, the examples you give revolve around the Heart suit. They might have been even more interesting if you had used the Spade suit!

    But once again thank you for a reply which may give other teachers something to think about.

  31. STANLEY ABRAHAMS11 Sep 2017 at 03:22PM

    In reply to Helene, it now appears today that you are teaching 5 card majors.

    2 questions. Firstly how are you able to use the hands on the NZB teaching sites, or the power point presentations, or the videos that have been prepared, when that is what you teach?

    Secondly, why not just teach a strong NT while you are at it, as 5 card majors are not Acol.?

  32. GILES HANCOCK11 Sep 2017 at 06:15PM

     

    I don't know the source, but I read somewhere that if you play 4-card Majors then a 1S opening will be a 5-card spade suit 95% of the time; and a 1H opening will be a 5-card heart suit 65% of the time.

     

    Stanley, what do you teach if partner opens 1H and you have say Spade-smallAxx Heart-smallxxx Diamond-smallAxxxx Club-smallxx ?

     

    regards

     

     

     

  33. STANLEY ABRAHAMS18 Nov 2017 at 02:46PM

    I have changed my mind. Seriously. Instead of opening 1 club when 4-3-3-3 with 15 -19, (because it is too hard for beginners to understand or remember according to Douglas), I just open 1Spade.

    But teach that you are playing a 5 card spade suit.

    This way responders will always raise with 3 card support. And in this exceptional case, 3% of the time, once every 3 months etc etc,  the opener will just rebid the correct number of NT. (and of course be corrected to spades when responder has 4 or more).

    And now when partner opens 1 Club, I am now going to say 4, not 3, as prescribed in the rules.

    What do the Directors say about that?

    This is not supposed to be sarcasm, I am quite serious. The fact that we are playing a 5 card spade suit, and 3% of the time I only have 4, is a judgement decision, not a system decision. 

    I await your comments.

  34. NICK WHITTEN19 Nov 2017 at 08:16AM

     

    Hi Stanley

    I DO exactly the same as you do in your Nov 18 post

    but I SAY "every 1 of a suit opening" promises a minimum of 4 cards

  35. GERRY PALMER07 Jan 2019 at 03:20PM

    Hi,

    I have come to this a bit (well over a year!) late but this is my 2 cents. 

    In my experience it is close to completely irrelevant what you teach learners.  The vast majority end the lessons completely lost - but this doesnt matter.  They now go into playing in whatever group that is and learn by doing.  Now of course they are constantly "helped" by all the old timers who, lets face it, also in the main have no idea either, but that also doesn't matter.  When I get them again later I can start teaching the keen ones how to play for real. 

    Again, in my view it doesnt matter in the slightest what you teach learners, they will be able to put into practice almost none of it.  I think we should teach things as they are needed.  No point in teaching Stayman until players start to see a need for it, same with signals, same with virtually everything actually. 

    I recently played a session with a newby straight out of (not my) lessons and near the end she said to the oppponents that she had "learned more tonight than in the previous three months".  Now the key thing was that she had obvious talent.  I played straight down the middle and seemed to end up dummy rather a lot but we scored 61 in a field of all grades.  Now we didnt have the ghost of a system really, but again, it didn't matter.  All I got her to agree was that every time we bid a new suit we were still looking for the right contract and to keep bidding...and when in doubt keep bidding.  That was plenty really, and we just bid our suits. 

    Anyway the upshot for me is a growing belief that we should play more sessions of mini-bridge or something like it and cut back on the bidding lessons drastically - this seems to be the direction they are going in in the USA. 

    Cheers, Gerry

  36. NICK WHITTEN19 Jan 2019 at 08:23AM

     

    Hi Gerry

    I think you are absolutely right here!

    I have always thought it best to just give the learners the essential features of the game (order of bidding, rank of suits etc) and give them cards in their hand and let them loose. (But I have never had the nerve to go through with it undecided)

    A lot of bridge learners come from a background of playing 500 like that.

    And then MUCH later tell them how they can get better results more often (but NOT every time) if they have some more precise definitions of the bids they make.

    cheers
    Nick

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