I will reply to Giles first. 

1. What do you reply to a beginner or improver who is keen to understand the logic behind a lesson? They ask a simple question like "Why do we do this"? The teacher who is just a good teacher, but has never been there, can only answer, "because that is what we teach."

I will give you one example. The bidding by NS goes 1C (strong), 2D (positive with good Diamonds), 3C, (Clubs), 4C (Club Support), 6C.

I will repeat it, 1C, 2D, 3C, 4C, 6C. 

You hold JT98, K32, Q, T9876. What is your lead? (If it helps, the declarer was Belladonna).

2. Who is teaching Stayman requiring 9 cards in the Majors? NZCBA improvers lesson 1, that is who.

3. We should not be teaching beginners attitude. So why are you not complaining to the NZCBA, am I the only voice?

4.  5 card Spades is an abomination, you write. Could you please give a couple of examples so that we can all hear the other side of the discussion. As I have said elsewhere, coming to a conclusion without a discussion is not particularly helpful. I gave my reasons, perhaps you can give yours, and readers can judge. (I really want to know, I have never heard that it was unpopular, just that teachers taught 4 card suits, without explanation).)

My reply to Douglas. 

Yes, I do have a lot to say, but only because others, who are extremely concerned, are not speaking up. The old saying, "the only thing neccesary for the triumph of evil ..etc.

You write, "Those of us who actually do it, as opposed to talk a lot about it". I hope that is not an ad hominem attack on me, you have no idea when I first taught, but I took over from Ailsa Hollis at Selwyn College and later at Edgewater College, for Adult Education in the early 80's, and have been involved on and off, ever since.

I, on the other hand have not attacked anyone, and if you read carefully, I wrote, "It was such a great idea at first". I don't think that is them being pilloried, my dictionary says "exposed to public scorn or abuse."

Empathy is putting yourself in their position, not going over things they didn't get the first time. Empathy is when one group goes to your class, but another group goes on line to learn, and when they meet up to practise, they have learnt different things, and they say S#@T. And yes, you write "some of us", twice in fact, but that is exactly the point is it not. Some of us do, but some of us don't.

And I am happy that you agree with my first point, teaching 1NT before suit bids. But there was a deafening silence on the next 6 points I raised, who will be the first to give a reasoned rebuttal, I wonder.?

No Giles I did not misread the Stayman notes. They MUST have either 11 Plus, with one 4 card Major, OR  5-4 with any 2. 

You were the one who wrote, "We do not need International experts to teach beginners", not I. And I agree, but it is always a plus when they do, and can add another dimension. That is why I asked the lead question, as I got it wrong, (on Viewgraph), but learned a lesson I have never forgotten, and can pass that message along. I am interested in what you would teach them to lead.

I really would like to hear why you think the 5 plus spades is an abomination, can you give any examples where it goes wrong?

And thanks for the NZ Bridge comment, I had forgotten all about that.

We are getting there, albeit rather slowly. I am trying very hard not to get too personal, as this should be about the methods, not the teachers.

You agree just as I originally wrote, that 4-3-3-3 with 4 spades only occurs with 15 -19 points. And that is only 3 times in 1000. But you intend to teach that the 1 Spade bid only shows 4 Spades. Therefore the responder with 3 card Spades and 6-9 points will always bid 1NT, not 2 Spades as you hope.  Therefore you cannot change that response to 2NT, as they will never bid 2S. (Of course after a while the responder will probably realise that the opener always seems to hold at least 5 Spades, and will start raising with 3. WOW! mission acomplished.)

You don't have to make a big deal about the 3 times in 1000. If they play a session once a week, they will pick up that hand once every 3 months, and may not even be first to speak. Just tell them to pretend one of their small Spades is a Club for the first 30 seconds of the auction, and then continue as normal.

I see you have repeated the notes on Stayman. It says either and or. There is no other option. This is English 101. It is manifestly incorrect.  I repeat, what do you bid with Kxxx, Kxxx, Qxxxx, void. Nobody should pass 1NT with that hand. I have given the maths already.

Finally I would love to join you to help in opening leads. Once you answer my lead problem, I will explain the reasoning. 

Hopefuly the other 2000 readers here may also like to join in.

Douglas, UDCA stands for Upside Down Count and Attitude signals. Can you see the third word there, COUNT? We have decided without discussion, not to teach COUNT. 

And 90% of experts have converted to it, you write. We are teaching beginners and improvers, not experts who have already read all the books, analysed thousands of hands, and come to a conclusion. Your next point will probably be that the 10% of experts who have not converted to it are wrong, (Like Bob Hamman), and the learners at the North Shore Club are right.

Please quote a book, a magazine, a blog, anything at all that even quietly hints that we should teach Reverse Attitude, and NOT teach any kind of count.

I believe that until you can show that, then NZ Bridge is alone in the world in trying to teach such a system. And that is just wrong.

The problem with teachers who have never taught a 5 card Spade suit, is that they make assumptions about how it is taught. With the problem hand, 15-19 point points, 4-3-3-3, we start by asking them to pretend that a small spade is a small club, and then proceed as normal. Normal does NOT mean hiding the Spade suit, and instead bidding the appropriate NT. Normal means bidding 1 Spade! Most experienced players do not hide the Spade suit. And we are not, repeat not, discussing experienced players. We are teaching, Always investigate a major fit, to learners and improvers.

Suggesting that that shows an unbalanced hand like 4 spades and 5 clubs has no real downside, the responder is not in final control of the auction. Suggestions that the bidding requires sophisticated methods to locate a 4-4 spade fit are suggestions, nothing more.

And if responder is minimum nothing is lost. What possible problems can occur over 1 Spade rebid by opener? Let us look at the various possibilities.

Responder has 4 Spades, then they just bid to the appropriate level. 1C, 1H, 1S, then 2S with 6-9, and opener passes with 15, invites with 16 or 17, and bids game with 18 or 19. With more than 9, responder bids 3 Spades, or 4 Spades.

Responder has less than 4 Spades, and 6-9 points, they bid 1NT.  Opener passes with 15, invites with 16-17, and bids game with 18-19.

Responder has more than 9 points, bids a new suit, bids 2NT, or chooses to go back to 2 Clubs, opener will know what to do. 

Another problem, not yet discussed, is when responder has 5 Hearts and less that 10 points, but that is for another thread, and is of course a real problem if you opened 1 Spade, and got a 1NT response. At least by opening 1 Club, the heart suit has already been mentioned once.

Those who are not happy with 5 card Spade suits as a system, have apparently never tried to teach it. And of course the prepared 1 Club bid is rarely seen, calculations show once every 3 months, and only if you are first to bid.

Russell, they also teach count, we don't. UDCA includes COUNT.

This is a direct cut and paste from Larry Cohens' website. Not quite what you wrote.

For count or suit preference, "standard" or "upside down" doesn't make much difference. For attitude, "upside down" is actually a little better, but not worth switching to if it will give you a headache. Standard is good enough for Bob Hamman, so it should be good enough for you.

In general, a discard should be an attitude signal (the first one, anyway). Subsequent discards can be used to show current count. The signal to partner's lead of a suit also tends to be attitude in most signaling systems.

- See more at: https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/242#sthash.PeKQTehr.dpuf

I agree with Giles' comment "5-card spades is an abomination" for these (additional) reasons

1  If you hold say AKQx  xxx  AKx xxx what do you want partner to lead from a similar holding in both black suits?  (assuming you only had the chance for one opening bid and then the opponents took over the auction)

2  How can responder know what suit to choose with one more club than spade in the uncontested sequence
1C - 1 red suit - 1S? (when the number of clubs in opener's hand can be anything fron 3 to 6)

3  What is the opener supposed to rebid with a minimum 5314 or 5134 shape after partner bids his short suit?
(you already told partner you have 5 spades and he has denied 3-card support)

4  What is responder to bid with 2434 shape after partner opens 1C and opponent overcalls 1H when holding 6-9 points and no stopper in  hearts?

Nick Whitten

Well Nick, I don't have all the answers, and quite often there is no correct answer. But going through your points 1 by 1, here are my answers, (or just as likely, alternatives.)

 1. It could be you hold Qxxx, xxx, AKx, AKx. Your question remains the same. You open 1S, I open 1Club. I have no correct answer to your lead question.

2. You write "one more club than Spade." Is that 1S and 2 Clubs? or 2S and 3 Clubs? Or 3 S and 4 Clubs?  In the first 2 they would probably bid 1NT, in the 3rd case they would choose to play in a 4-3 club fit, or a 4 -3 Spade fit. No big deal. (Except that I will hold 4 plus Clubs nearly all the time). You on the other hand will open 1S, and because they won't give immediate support with 3, they will probably bid 1NT

3. Well, partner has shown 10 plus points by bidding his suit at the 2 level, so a rebid by opener of 2NT will be fine. 

4. Well, playing your system the bidding would have gone 1S, 2H ? and I guess the answer is the same. PASS, a bid beginners have difficulty making.

You can see that there are no absolutey correct bids, that is the game we play. But so far I can see no specfic point that shows that promising 5 plus Spades has a downside, (except opening 1Club with 3 once every 3 months), and as that is correct 997 times out of 1,000, why not make it easy for the non experts, who can support with 3 cards immediately, and gives no extra information to the opponents.

One day I hope that someone who teaches 4 card suits, will reply saying, "Oh now I get it!"

I'm afraid I don't "get it" when the prescribed rebid in my example 3 is to make a bid showing a balanced 15-16 when holding an unbalanced minimum

Well Russell, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I guess when it comes to teaching the response to an opening bid of 1 Spade, you say something to your beginners like,

"When the opener opens 1 Spade and you hold 3 spades and 6-9 points, just raise them to the appropriate level, 2 Spades, because you will be surprised, they will nearly always have 5 Spades anyway". I'm just guessing of course, but how else can you stop them bidding 1NT with their 6-9 points? 

And for smaller clubs, would it not be absolutely fantastic if the teacher for the improvers, taught count, Stayman with 4-4 not 5-4, a rebid of 1NT showing 15-16, and of course a full lesson on the Negative Double.  After a year or so, those improvers will be beating all the old timers who learned the wrong stuff, and continue to get some poor results because of that.

And what a hero that teacher would be! Some oldies might even pop in to the improvers lessons just to see what all the fuss was about.

 Alternatively pigs might fly.

Sorry Douglas, about the Russell.

As I am sure you are aware, I really am not a mathematical genius. However I think the 2 points you make are not connected. However I will ask my Maths Genius partner tonight, and will report back unless we fail, again, to reach 50% due to his inability to count to 13.

Dear Stanley,  permit me to disagree with you here.  I am a Bridge Teacher and I must command NZBridge for all the material that is now made available to us on the website.   NO one forces us to use it.  THere are tons of systems on the web...for anyone's choice.

If I prefer something else than what is in the material, I just ask my students to write over it..end of! It does not mean the material is not good.  Every teacher can personalise their teaching starting from a baseline...

I certainly would be lost without this material.  I do not wish to spend my time re-inventing the wheel.

One can choose to teach INT first or not.  I personnaly don't.  But I teach a beginner version of Stayman during the course for the learners to know about.  And I use part of Stayman material on the web.   Wonderful!  We even get the .BRI files. And my students don't have to use it.

If they want to practice it...the boards are made.

I think NZ supports their teachers very well, thank you. I think the website is wonderful !

Just my opinion, no offense intended.

Respectfully

Helene Labreche

East Coast Bays Bridge Club

I had hoped that someone, somewhere, would have answered, however briefly, what was wrong with playing that a Spade suit should be 5.

(Besides the fact that once every  months one needed to pretend, if only for a short while, that a small spade was a club). Edgar Kaplan said to us, "That is an excellent Compromise" when we had to give him our system before the Bermuda Bowl in 1974.

From time time I like to reread some of my bridge books, and yesterday I was looking at "Bridge Odds for Practical Players"

 by High Kelsey and Michael Glauert. It was the word Practical that gave me reason to bring up the subject again.

When I read Suit-Support Expectancy I had an epiphany. He wrote, "Suppose you have a 5 card spade suit. what are the chances that partner will have 3 card support?

Actually I didn't know the actual answer, the question had never really been asked. But for PRACTICAL players it suddenly seemed the key to the whole question.

And the answer was 30.58%

So what exactly do we teach our Practical beginners when their partner opens 1 Spade, (which NZB teaches as 4) and we hold  3 card support more than 30% of the time?

I really would like to know.

Stanley, I am sorry you feel this way; as far as I am concerned, the NZB website is a wonderful tool to standardise the teaching base.

I use it with great delight.  Teachers do not have to use everything but a good base is very important to create a decent bridge player.

Once the players get better, there are plenty of improvers everywhere for them to "tweek" that base not to mention the million books that have been written...Teachers needed a tool like the website..it has given me great successes with my learners. 

There is nothing wrong with you starting with NT if you want to...there is that option on the web. I also talk about Stayman to my students and if they want to practice it, I let them..it is optional at the beginner's lessons...but they are aware of the convention and most of them play it once they play with the normal group.

You should know by now that there is no such thing as a perfect system..having a good base is so very important...don't knock it!

Helene Labreche, teacher

East Coast Bays Bridge Club.

Hi Stanley

Somebody did say what is wrong with 5-card spade suit

That somebody was me on this thread June 22 2016

Are you saying I am nobody

I don't mind that; nobody is perfect

I said I would really like to know. All I hear are personal attacks. Helene ignores the question completely. Nick, well I did reply one day later to your comments on 22nd June. (without attacking you personally). 

So the question remains, you teach 4 card spades, (even though it is usually 5) what is the response with 3 card support? That is all I really want to know, what do you tell them to bid with 6-9 and 3 spades?  (Which is nearly a third of the time.) If someone can give me a useful, honest, transparent answer I will start teaching it, But for 45 years we have played and taught 5 cards, and although there is not always a complete answer, there appear far fewer drawbacks than not supporting immediately with 3 card support. 

What do you teach, Helene?

Hi Stanley, I am the teacher at East Coast Bays Bridge Club on the North Shore and I agree that whenever someone learning 4 card majors and opening 1S...will mostly have a 5 card suit...that is not the point!  The point is to start somewhere.  Goren wrote the book on 4 Card Majors and then rewrote the book with 5 cards; personnally I open 5 card majors ( having learned SAYC first in Canada); The point is to give a base to learners...and keep it simple.  Once they have mastered a simple bidding sequence...then they can go to better things if they want to.

I have 56 learners this year at my club!...I need to keep it simple!...and make them fall in love with the game by not over complicating things..

So far, so good...no one quit and I am at lesson 4.

Cheers

Helene

I teach its Ok to raise with three trumps if the alternatives look ugly (any suit, not just spades).

Often (I'm sure some geek can quote the exact percentage) opener will have more than 4 cards.

And if he has only 4 it will often play Ok in a 4-3 fit

But I always stress NEVER bid a (new) suit with less than 4 cards.

Three trumps and a shortage is one situation where the alternatives are ugly.

So if partner opens 1H:

with [a] S: 3 H: K53 D: J9753 C: K953 I recommend bid 2H

with [b] S: 753 H: K53 D: KQ3 C: J953 I recommend bid 1NT

If opener has either of the following hands, responders choice of denomination will be the only makeable game

[c] S: A64 H: AQJ6 D: A82 C: A62

[d] S: A64 H: AQJ64 D: A82 C: Q6

And also if responder has this hand

[e] S: 864 H: KQJ4 D: 82 C: 8642

and the bidding has gone (uncontested):

Opener: 1C Responder: 1H Opener: 1S

I teach ALWAYS correct to 2C (but what should he do if partner might only have three clubs?)

Hi Nick, I really appreciate your reply. You have clearly articulated what you do, and I agree with everything you just wrote.

I will reply to your last sentence, where you ask what happens if opener has only 3 clubs? The answer is that opener with 3 clubs will have to choose between bidding 2NT, remember they are 4333 with 15-19, or bidding 3 hearts on the way, in case the responder had 5. (or passing, in case responder had 5 clubs and 4 hearts.) These are decisions that are a bit difficult, particularly for those learning the game. 

And with that comment I make one little point, we are teaching newcomers, and the point you make about raising on 3 card support is a little advanced. Don't you think that promising a 5 card Spade suit might possibly be easier.

And my final comment, the examples you give revolve around the Heart suit. They might have been even more interesting if you had used the Spade suit!

But once again thank you for a reply which may give other teachers something to think about.

In reply to Helene, it now appears today that you are teaching 5 card majors.

2 questions. Firstly how are you able to use the hands on the NZB teaching sites, or the power point presentations, or the videos that have been prepared, when that is what you teach?

Secondly, why not just teach a strong NT while you are at it, as 5 card majors are not Acol.?

I have changed my mind. Seriously. Instead of opening 1 club when 4-3-3-3 with 15 -19, (because it is too hard for beginners to understand or remember according to Douglas), I just open 1Spade.

But teach that you are playing a 5 card spade suit.

This way responders will always raise with 3 card support. And in this exceptional case, 3% of the time, once every 3 months etc etc,  the opener will just rebid the correct number of NT. (and of course be corrected to spades when responder has 4 or more).

And now when partner opens 1 Club, I am now going to say 4, not 3, as prescribed in the rules.

What do the Directors say about that?

This is not supposed to be sarcasm, I am quite serious. The fact that we are playing a 5 card spade suit, and 3% of the time I only have 4, is a judgement decision, not a system decision. 

I await your comments.

Hi Stanley

I DO exactly the same as you do in your Nov 18 post

but I SAY "every 1 of a suit opening" promises a minimum of 4 cards

Hi,

I have come to this a bit (well over a year!) late but this is my 2 cents. 

In my experience it is close to completely irrelevant what you teach learners.  The vast majority end the lessons completely lost - but this doesnt matter.  They now go into playing in whatever group that is and learn by doing.  Now of course they are constantly "helped" by all the old timers who, lets face it, also in the main have no idea either, but that also doesn't matter.  When I get them again later I can start teaching the keen ones how to play for real. 

Again, in my view it doesnt matter in the slightest what you teach learners, they will be able to put into practice almost none of it.  I think we should teach things as they are needed.  No point in teaching Stayman until players start to see a need for it, same with signals, same with virtually everything actually. 

I recently played a session with a newby straight out of (not my) lessons and near the end she said to the oppponents that she had "learned more tonight than in the previous three months".  Now the key thing was that she had obvious talent.  I played straight down the middle and seemed to end up dummy rather a lot but we scored 61 in a field of all grades.  Now we didnt have the ghost of a system really, but again, it didn't matter.  All I got her to agree was that every time we bid a new suit we were still looking for the right contract and to keep bidding...and when in doubt keep bidding.  That was plenty really, and we just bid our suits. 

Anyway the upshot for me is a growing belief that we should play more sessions of mini-bridge or something like it and cut back on the bidding lessons drastically - this seems to be the direction they are going in in the USA. 

Cheers, Gerry

Hi Gerry

I think you are absolutely right here!

I have always thought it best to just give the learners the essential features of the game (order of bidding, rank of suits etc) and give them cards in their hand and let them loose. (But I have never had the nerve to go through with it )

A lot of bridge learners come from a background of playing 500 like that.

And then MUCH later tell them how they can get better results more often (but NOT every time) if they have some more precise definitions of the bids they make.

cheers
Nick