Hi all

I believe Stayman should be taught as it is what just about everybody plays.

Especially as a natural weak 2C has to be alerted.
Opponents may be seriously damaged by failure to alert in a tournament.

cheers

Nick

I believe the regulatory and teaching arms of NZB need to be compatible with each other.

And not have anything taught at the elementary level which requires an alert.

cheers

Nick

One has to look at 2 different cases. Firstly anyone slightly interested in learning bridge will be on the internet or in the library. As 99.999% of the literature assumes that everyone for the last 70 years plays some version of Stayman, it surely shows a lack of empathy with our beginners if they are unable to practise simple hands.

The second point that was made was that there are too many issues. Weak with clubs, 2NT opening, 1NT overcall. I would like to suggest that the frequency of these 3 issues together, come nowhere near the frequency of a requirement to bid Stayman. Even when I played him over 40 years ago, he was not adjusting his system regarding a 2 club bid.

And for those of you who want to teach Stayman and transfers at a later date, please tell me what you teach your beginners when responder has a 5 card major and 11-12 points. You know as well as I, that we only reach the correct spot 50% of the time. I can live with that, and transfer bids take care of it at the next teaching level. To be clear, that is the main advantage of transfers, the minors are not nearly so important at duplicate.

Stayman continued. Also known as Maths 101, Stayman for aspiring bridge teachers.

Put up your hand if you agree that one needs at least 9 cards in the majors to use Stayman if one has less than 11 HCP, as per the NZCBA lesson for improvers. Keep your hand up if you hold Kxxx, Kxxx, Qxxxx, void, and you decide to pass partners 1NT opening. Is your hand still up? Then you may leave the room.

Lets go back to needing the 5-4 hands. There are 10 hand distributions where the NT bidder has no 4 card major. (Remember we have 2 rules, not 2 doubletons, and no 5 card major). If you need 5-4 in the majors, and the answer is 2D, then there is a 30% chance that you will be in a 5-2 fit. That gives an average holding in your major of 2.7 opposite your 5. (3 times out of 10 opener will be 3-2 the wrong way round).

Now look at the example hand. If you pass 2D, there is a 10% chance that you will be in a 5-2 fit, 30% that the fit will be 5-3, 30% that the fit will be 5-4, and 30% that the fit will be 5-5!! )Yes 5-5). That is an average of 3.8 Diamonds opposite your 5, 

That is simplistic maths, and although the odds vary slightly depending on the distribution, one can see at a glance that Stayman is correct on the example hand, and that one should pass 2D.

Now change the hand to 4-4-4-1. Now there is a 10% chance that if you pass that you will be in a 4-2 diamond fit. Don't pass, just bid 2H, and opener will correct with only 2 hearts. A guaranteed 7 card fit. And of course that works with any 4-4 in the majors, just forget the diamond suit.

And what are the chances of picking up 4-4 versus 5-4. Well according to my very, very simple maths, you are 40% more likely to pick up a 4-4 anyway.

Not convinced. Well I am not surprised, just disappointed. I will continue tomorrow about lack of empathy with our learners, and the conflict of interest that teachers have. 

(until the moderator gets upset).

I have been teaching 4 people at at time for a number of years and have always wondered when to introduce Stayman...........so far always leaving it until later until a while ago when my latest 4 started playing at our club (Paihia)  which is a small,  relaxed and (mostly) very friendly club.   One of my learners partners, on bidding 2c after my learners 1NT and then being LEFT in 2c, said in an unnecessarly loud voice " Good heavens don't you even know Stayman"......................it took quite a lot of persuasion to get my beginner back to playing at the club!

I have now decided (rightly or wrongly) to include stayman at the same time as teaching the 1NT.    Speaking for myself if my partner goes 2c after my 1nt,  if I have BOTH majors I reply 2NT allowing my PARTNER to choose his best major. I have found that this saves any misses when I say 2h and they go 3NT ,thinking that I have not got the spades.     

I would appreciate any comments on this deviation from the norm 

Hi Di, why not just bid 2H, and if partner bids 3NT, just convert to 4S. Partner would not bid Stayman without any 4 card major, therefore they have Spades.

If they are weaker than a game bid, this way you won't go past the 2 level.

well done Di, I can now tell you that most of my students play Stayman after 1 y of play and a lot also play transfers....I play with them when they want me to but I only play what they are comfortable with...so I will keep on teaching Stayman...and so they understand the point about finding a fit in the majors, I also keep 1nt at lesson 5 .

Hi everyone,

I tell the beginners about Stayman on night 10 when I'm doing "bits and pieces". I give them a handout on Stayman so they have something to refer to, and I show them a hand where Stayman will lead to a good result, and where no Stayman will mean 3NT one off. I tell them that just about everyone plays Stayman.

But I tell them not to play it for a few months till they are settled into beginners night.

And when I give the beginners night players a heads-up on the arrival of the new players I tell them to be aware that newbies will not be playing Stayman, and to make sure they explain Stayman when they use it.

I usually give a "basic bidding refresher" to new players towards the end of the year and here I promote Stayman, and tell them to start using it.

Regards

David Morel

kapi-Mana Bridge Club

Well its nearly a year since you posted on this subject, Helene, so we are interested in what your beginners said about Stayman in your survey.

Hi Stanley, yes, you are right...I did not get back to this...Actually, I forgot.  THe last group did not really want to practice Stayman...I tought them about it and had prepared boards for it...but no interest...So I am still teaching it as an improver topic during the year.  In saying that, I am musing with the  idea of teaching it right away when I teach 1NT opening...but not sure...because it affects all the other bidding sequences...hummm.  For now, I will still teach it as an improver...but one major issue with this...is that the 2c bid over the 1NT opening from partner...to play...is still "alertable" in the manual....silly...how does one teach complete beginners about that!

Cheers

Helene

Hi Karen, yes I agree, it seems to be too much for learners at that stage.  What I have been doing is after the 10 lessons, I use the next 3 weeks to inform  them ( not teach) about Stayman, transfers, 4C ace asking as they will meet players that play these.  I prepare boards for Stayman in case some want to practice it but no obligation.  Then we have lots of practices (in 2017, we gave them 3 months!) during which time they learn about lots of things....mainly...the "alerting" etc...So much to learn! 

During the year, then I have workshops on Stayman, Transfers, Negative Doubles (which I believe to be very important) and the many ways to ask for aces. Gerber, CRO and and Blackwood ( I show them how to stop in 5NT if they want to stop there).  At that stage, I will usually find that my students from 2-3 years ago come to these workshops... they are ready.

CHeers

Helene